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Apr. 22nd, 2007 10:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
liptonrm_backupI've been sitting on this bit of meta for quite a while and now seems like as good as any time to finally put my words down into some sort of physical form. Enjoy.
The prevailing opinion in fandom appears to be that if a comparison must be made then Dean most closely resembles Mulder and Sam, Scully and while I certainly understand the reasons behind that particular presumption I don't agree with it. There are certainly things that Dean has in common with Mulder and Sam has in common with Scully. Like Scully, Sam has to put up with Dean's Mulder-like lack of caring about how the world sees him and is constantly trying to smooth the inevitable waves that form in his wake. The skeptic/believer dichotomy has also been bandied around but it's a rather complex analysis that isn't quite as easy in either show as it would first appear.
I'll begin with a story analysis. This is the first thing![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
baylorsr goes to anytime we have this discussion, which is a lot seeing as neither of us can ever stop thinking about the Winchesters and we're doing an X-Files rewatch. Sam and Mulder occupy the same position in their respective stories. They are the driving forces, the seekers, the Campbellian questers who are driven down a specific heroic path. There are outside forces that have plans for both of them, whether it be a yellow-eyed demon or a smoky Consortium. They seek because they have lost people, because the fight has been brought directly to their doorsteps and they must learn the truth. The over-arcing story is very much their story and the evil forces have their eyes directly focused on them, have plans for them and will do everything possible to see those plans come to fruition.
Of course, what those evil forces always fail to fully appreciate is the person standing directly beside the marked protgatonist. Dean and Scully are the protectors and the strength, the firm foundation and the steady hand. The biggest mistake the Consortium ever made was placing Scully with Mulder and it may just turn out that the Demon's own downfall will come because it traded John's life for Dean's. They're as inextricably tied up in the quest as their partners and are as essential to whatever victory may ensue but they're the ones that could conceivably escape, who won't be chased down and forced to participate but who will stand their ground irregardless and fight for their own reasons.
Beyond the archetypal story positions there's also basic psychology. We have evidence that Sam and Mulder are the driven ones, willing to sacrifice nearly anything (except Dean or Scully) to effectuate their goals, they're the prodigals who grew up believing that they would never be who their fathers wanted them to be so they would be their own people and take their own paths. Dean and Scully, by contrast, were the good children, the good soldiers who wanted more then anything to make their fathers proud. Mulder and Sam take intuitive leaps when they're solving problems going from point A to point F in one instinctive jump where Scully and Dean follow the evidence through logically, step by step to reach the same point.
At the center of the similarities lies faith. Much has been made over the years about Scully's religious belief and rightfully so, I was always grateful that Chris Carter gave us a scientist who was also religous. What's so easy to forget and something that I only remember now that I'm in the middle of seeing Scully's character progession begin is that she was not always so. In the early years Scully was as skeptical of her mother and her sister's religion as she was of Mulder's crusade and her belief in both came as evidence upon evidence piled up to convince her. Dean is much the same way, he believes in what he knows, what the evidence provides and what he can see and touch and comprehend. The Sam we see in 'Houses of the Holy' believes in so much the same way that Mulder does, with a frantic kind of desperation that makes him grab fast onto anything he can and is so broken when that thing turns out to not be at all what he needed it to be. They both want to believe and it's that gaping want that drives them both, in the end.
They're stories are different and the laws of their lives don't always match and it can be argued back and forth who is more like who but in the end the important similarity, the thing that keeps so many of us coming back, is the strength of them together. The grandness of the machinations of the roads they travel takes a back-burner to the myriad complexities of who they become and the strength they gain because they have each other.
Plus, Sam and Mulder really are the red-headed woman of their separate partnerships, real gender and hair-coloring of the participants notwithstanding.
;-)
The prevailing opinion in fandom appears to be that if a comparison must be made then Dean most closely resembles Mulder and Sam, Scully and while I certainly understand the reasons behind that particular presumption I don't agree with it. There are certainly things that Dean has in common with Mulder and Sam has in common with Scully. Like Scully, Sam has to put up with Dean's Mulder-like lack of caring about how the world sees him and is constantly trying to smooth the inevitable waves that form in his wake. The skeptic/believer dichotomy has also been bandied around but it's a rather complex analysis that isn't quite as easy in either show as it would first appear.
I'll begin with a story analysis. This is the first thing
baylorsr goes to anytime we have this discussion, which is a lot seeing as neither of us can ever stop thinking about the Winchesters and we're doing an X-Files rewatch. Sam and Mulder occupy the same position in their respective stories. They are the driving forces, the seekers, the Campbellian questers who are driven down a specific heroic path. There are outside forces that have plans for both of them, whether it be a yellow-eyed demon or a smoky Consortium. They seek because they have lost people, because the fight has been brought directly to their doorsteps and they must learn the truth. The over-arcing story is very much their story and the evil forces have their eyes directly focused on them, have plans for them and will do everything possible to see those plans come to fruition.Of course, what those evil forces always fail to fully appreciate is the person standing directly beside the marked protgatonist. Dean and Scully are the protectors and the strength, the firm foundation and the steady hand. The biggest mistake the Consortium ever made was placing Scully with Mulder and it may just turn out that the Demon's own downfall will come because it traded John's life for Dean's. They're as inextricably tied up in the quest as their partners and are as essential to whatever victory may ensue but they're the ones that could conceivably escape, who won't be chased down and forced to participate but who will stand their ground irregardless and fight for their own reasons.
Beyond the archetypal story positions there's also basic psychology. We have evidence that Sam and Mulder are the driven ones, willing to sacrifice nearly anything (except Dean or Scully) to effectuate their goals, they're the prodigals who grew up believing that they would never be who their fathers wanted them to be so they would be their own people and take their own paths. Dean and Scully, by contrast, were the good children, the good soldiers who wanted more then anything to make their fathers proud. Mulder and Sam take intuitive leaps when they're solving problems going from point A to point F in one instinctive jump where Scully and Dean follow the evidence through logically, step by step to reach the same point.
At the center of the similarities lies faith. Much has been made over the years about Scully's religious belief and rightfully so, I was always grateful that Chris Carter gave us a scientist who was also religous. What's so easy to forget and something that I only remember now that I'm in the middle of seeing Scully's character progession begin is that she was not always so. In the early years Scully was as skeptical of her mother and her sister's religion as she was of Mulder's crusade and her belief in both came as evidence upon evidence piled up to convince her. Dean is much the same way, he believes in what he knows, what the evidence provides and what he can see and touch and comprehend. The Sam we see in 'Houses of the Holy' believes in so much the same way that Mulder does, with a frantic kind of desperation that makes him grab fast onto anything he can and is so broken when that thing turns out to not be at all what he needed it to be. They both want to believe and it's that gaping want that drives them both, in the end.
They're stories are different and the laws of their lives don't always match and it can be argued back and forth who is more like who but in the end the important similarity, the thing that keeps so many of us coming back, is the strength of them together. The grandness of the machinations of the roads they travel takes a back-burner to the myriad complexities of who they become and the strength they gain because they have each other.
Plus, Sam and Mulder really are the red-headed woman of their separate partnerships, real gender and hair-coloring of the participants notwithstanding.
;-)
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no subject
Date: 2007-04-23 01:23 pm (UTC)So, for the record: I completely agree. :-) And nicely argued, counselor.
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Date: 2007-04-23 10:14 pm (UTC)And thank you. Let us only hope that I'll be able to transplant this skill from fandom to my legal career.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-25 11:40 pm (UTC)I think I've never been overly attached to the idea that Dean=Mulder, just to the idea that it's so logical Dean would see himself as Mulder (the archetypal hero figure) because Dean revels in certain heroic traits, enjoys it, cultivates the door-kicking heroic facade even if he doesn't demand to be called a hero.
Sam and Mulder occupy the same position in their respective stories. They are the driving forces, the seekers, the Campbellian questers who are driven down a specific heroic path.
Technically, this is true, but I think Dean has a larger hero role in his own right than Scully does. Not that TXF never gave her a unique arc or quests for herself, but Mulder had his crusade, and Scully followed Mulder following his crusade. Dean has his own crusade, and a lot of father issues. Sam may be more modelled after the Campbellian stages of the hero quest, but Dean goes through some of the same stages. Maybe Scully does too. But I feel like Scully was carried along on the coattails of Mulder's quest in ways Dean isn't on Sam's (sorry, long standing issue with me about TXF).
The biggest mistake the Consortium ever made was placing Scully with Mulder and it may just turn out that the Demon's own downfall will come because it traded John's life for Dean's.
Heh. Word on that. Dean's *dangerous*. And in that way he is the Scully, the one terrifying in defense of a partner. Although I think the dangerousness also links Dean to Mulder, because while Scully was the secret weapon and the Consortium's biggest mistake, they also knew Mulder was the most dangerous human alive to them. And Dean, in some ways, could be the most dangerous human to the Demon and his plans.
Also, Mulder was irreverent the way Dean is, with Sam & Scully the more serious members of the team.
Which is all to say, I agree with what you're saying here and I'm having fun seeing how it maps to Sam=Mulder but also to Dean=Mulder. And Sam=Scully and Dean=Scully.
Cool post!
no subject
Date: 2007-04-29 01:41 am (UTC)Oh, absolutely. Dean definitely sees himself as The Hero of the piece. What's funny is that Mulder isn't the sort of hero that Dean would pattern himself after. He's way too emo and disturbed. Though he totally feels for the guy over that whole 'my little sibling was stolen from me' deal.
but I think Dean has a larger hero role in his own right than Scully does. Not that TXF never gave her a unique arc or quests for herself, but Mulder had his crusade, and Scully followed Mulder following his crusade.
I did think of this while I was putting everything into some coherent order. It really does benefit Dean as a character to be a brother rather then an FBI partner because for as much as they did to entangle Scully in the conspiracy everything always happened because of Mulder.
There definitely are many parallels between all of them. Meta isn't an exact science, which is one of the reasons I love it so much. ;-) They're the same, except when they're not. Man I love our show.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-26 06:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-29 01:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-26 07:09 pm (UTC)But this does not answer the larger question: if Dean is Han Solo, and Dean is Scully, does that mean Scully is Han Solo??
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Date: 2007-04-29 02:21 am (UTC)Absolutely! Which kind of makes Mulder her Chewbacca (ok, ok, fine, Mulder can be Luke, whatever;-).
Wow, this all reminds me of a crossover I read way back in the day. Fandom really is one big circle. =D
no subject
Date: 2007-04-26 10:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-29 02:23 am (UTC)Certainly. That's what made Sam's face even funnier in that scene. Every time I see it I can imagine him thinking, 'No, Dean, I've put a lot of thought into this and you're Scully.' but saying stuff like that out loud would only encourage Dean.
And you can't let a good red-headed woman crack go to waste. ;-)
no subject
Date: 2007-04-26 10:13 pm (UTC)Some interesting points here. Maybe like Mulder Sam will also discover his father wasn't who he thought.
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Date: 2007-04-29 02:30 am (UTC)I actually really hope that Kripke&Co never make the analogy that definite. I'm extremely fond of and invested in the Winchester family as a family with all that entails. It's true that Sam would always be Dean's brother no matter what but Sam not being John's son would be ... problematic, Especially considering how very much John's son Sam really is.