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Apr. 3rd, 2009 12:59 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
liptonrm_backupAnd here I thought I was done talking about last night's SPN. *snerk*
I swear, I think this is the fastest 180 I've pulled on any hour of television. I went from DO NOT WANT to OMG HOW AWESOME in record timing. \0/
Before I get started, I should probably mention that my embarrassment squick for fan-creator/actor interactions has reached such levels that I can no longer attend Creation cons. The whole way they have it set up is just too much for me.
That being said, I love so hardcore how much Kripke & Co. love us, the fans. Never before has their been an episode of television that so amusingly poked fun at the hardcore fans and at the same time was an opus of love. They recognize our foibles and crazy and still think we're absolutely adorable. Which, you know, is exactly how I feel about Show. They love us like we love them OMG!
This reminds me of a great observation from![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
icarusancalion re: Chuck. She/He/It said: "With "Chuck" the show nods and notes that fanfic writers are very ordinary, average-Joe people. They also acknowledge that, the occasional awkward phrasing aside, fanfic writers are serious about their writing. Their following may be small compared to the following of Supernatural, and they may make nothing off of it. But Chuck is portrayed as a dedicated and sincere writer."
A world of YES. She/He/It also said: "The entire episode was about how close fanfic calls some of the plot lines in the works, and how invasive and strange it feels to them." Which I think comes to the heart of it all.
I don't think there's ever before been a semi-popular show that was so connected with the underground fan movement. And not necessarily the fanboy geeks that are the cliches so often associated with Star Trek or Star Wars but rather the fangirls who, for the most part, write the stories. We've spent so much time being ignored or halfheartedly acknowledged in a skeevy kind of way that the recognition came as a shock.
I think that Kripke really does see Supernatural as a collaborative project between him, his writers, and the fans (and the production people and the actors too, but that love story was written back in Hollywood Babylon), which is a big step in that Fan/Show evolution. Let's just look back at the other fannish shows/products of the past few decades. There's Roddenberry who probably had no clue about the Kirk/Spock that was being written back in the day and while general fan adulation led to the extension of his idea and universe it didn't really impact the product. Ron Moore, by extension, is more aware of fan-type things (because of the way the internet has fundamentally changed the way we communicate) but also sets himself and his shows (BSG and DS9) at a higher level. He doesn't take fan critique very seriously.
And George Lucas let all of the acclaim go to his head and really began to think of himself and his ideas as infallible and we all know what happened there. (Prequels *sigh*)
The man who likes to style himself as the Great Geek Overlord of show creators, Joss Whedon, doesn't seem to fundamentally respect the fans. He loves to get them all riled up and he'll do whatever crazy shit he wants to cause a huge fan reaction but he doesn't fundamentally like us, if the way he treats the geek-like characters in his own shows is any indication.
Apparently J. Michael Straczynski actually requested that the fans not write fic because he didn't want anyone to figure out where he was going before he got there. Which, while I understand his desire to absolutely control his product, is really a shame because can you just imagine the awesome fic that could have arisen about Babylon 5 if fans hadn't respected his wishes? Yeah, he kind of screwed the pooch with that one.
ETA: I can't believe I forgot to mention Chris Carter and The X-Files. How could I forget the show that ruined me for all others? *is ashamed* Anyway, Carter is, in essence, the proto-Kripke. The X-files was a show that was very aware of the fan element and very accepting of it. However, they didn't cater to it or even really acknowledge it in any concrete way (well, they did in season 8 or 9 but those seasons don't exist for me so we won't talk about them;-). Plus Carter, for all of his great qualities, was very much under the impression that he was an artiste. He had Important Things to say and he would inflict the purplest prose on you (usually via poor Gillian Anderson) to make sure that you got his point. I'm sure it all sounded better when he was writing it while he and Frank Spotnitz were high in hs van down by the river. It's okay, Chris, I forgive you. *gives noogie* /ETA
Finally we come back to Kripke and Supernatural. Right from the beginning he's been aware of fan support because of how tentative the show's renewal was after season one. I think he was also made more cognizant of fans because of all of the X-Files people he had with him at that time. I remember reading somewhere the Kim Manners told Jared and Jensen about fic and may have even given some of it to them, probably as a joke. All of them are certainly aware of us by now because after that first Chicago con Creation realized they could make a buttload of money off of us. But Kripke, instead of freaking out or deciding to hate us, has chosen rather to embrace us. And that's what last night was about. To put it in another way, and I can't remember where I saw it (apocalypsos I think?), but last night was about Show writing RPF about the fans.
I'm reminded of a remark Ian McKellan once made about LotR fans he'd met, that he'd been surprised to discover how smart so many of those fans were and that he really enjoyed some of the conversations he'd had with fans. That's what Eric is saying to us, he recognizes how smart we are and how we're always trying to both perfect our own craft while fangirling his product which is what he's trying to do as well.
That's why Kripke gets a pass on stuff like this because he's doing it with love. I think you're adorable too, Eric.
The internet has allowed fans and creators to interact in ways that they were never able to do before communication became so easy and instantaneous. Not all creators are able to handle that level of interaction but I think Kripke&Co are handling it just fine. They're willing to tell their story the way it needs to be told and they're letting us tell the stories that we need to tell. And if they sometimes poke fun at us, well, we give it right back in spades. We are them and they are us and it's really kind of awesome. After all, I've always said that Kripke is the biggest fangirl of them all.
In sum: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE LOVE BABEE
I swear, I think this is the fastest 180 I've pulled on any hour of television. I went from DO NOT WANT to OMG HOW AWESOME in record timing. \0/
Before I get started, I should probably mention that my embarrassment squick for fan-creator/actor interactions has reached such levels that I can no longer attend Creation cons. The whole way they have it set up is just too much for me.
That being said, I love so hardcore how much Kripke & Co. love us, the fans. Never before has their been an episode of television that so amusingly poked fun at the hardcore fans and at the same time was an opus of love. They recognize our foibles and crazy and still think we're absolutely adorable. Which, you know, is exactly how I feel about Show. They love us like we love them OMG!
This reminds me of a great observation from
icarusancalion re: Chuck. She/He/It said: "With "Chuck" the show nods and notes that fanfic writers are very ordinary, average-Joe people. They also acknowledge that, the occasional awkward phrasing aside, fanfic writers are serious about their writing. Their following may be small compared to the following of Supernatural, and they may make nothing off of it. But Chuck is portrayed as a dedicated and sincere writer."A world of YES. She/He/It also said: "The entire episode was about how close fanfic calls some of the plot lines in the works, and how invasive and strange it feels to them." Which I think comes to the heart of it all.
I don't think there's ever before been a semi-popular show that was so connected with the underground fan movement. And not necessarily the fanboy geeks that are the cliches so often associated with Star Trek or Star Wars but rather the fangirls who, for the most part, write the stories. We've spent so much time being ignored or halfheartedly acknowledged in a skeevy kind of way that the recognition came as a shock.
I think that Kripke really does see Supernatural as a collaborative project between him, his writers, and the fans (and the production people and the actors too, but that love story was written back in Hollywood Babylon), which is a big step in that Fan/Show evolution. Let's just look back at the other fannish shows/products of the past few decades. There's Roddenberry who probably had no clue about the Kirk/Spock that was being written back in the day and while general fan adulation led to the extension of his idea and universe it didn't really impact the product. Ron Moore, by extension, is more aware of fan-type things (because of the way the internet has fundamentally changed the way we communicate) but also sets himself and his shows (BSG and DS9) at a higher level. He doesn't take fan critique very seriously.
And George Lucas let all of the acclaim go to his head and really began to think of himself and his ideas as infallible and we all know what happened there. (Prequels *sigh*)
The man who likes to style himself as the Great Geek Overlord of show creators, Joss Whedon, doesn't seem to fundamentally respect the fans. He loves to get them all riled up and he'll do whatever crazy shit he wants to cause a huge fan reaction but he doesn't fundamentally like us, if the way he treats the geek-like characters in his own shows is any indication.
Apparently J. Michael Straczynski actually requested that the fans not write fic because he didn't want anyone to figure out where he was going before he got there. Which, while I understand his desire to absolutely control his product, is really a shame because can you just imagine the awesome fic that could have arisen about Babylon 5 if fans hadn't respected his wishes? Yeah, he kind of screwed the pooch with that one.
ETA: I can't believe I forgot to mention Chris Carter and The X-Files. How could I forget the show that ruined me for all others? *is ashamed* Anyway, Carter is, in essence, the proto-Kripke. The X-files was a show that was very aware of the fan element and very accepting of it. However, they didn't cater to it or even really acknowledge it in any concrete way (well, they did in season 8 or 9 but those seasons don't exist for me so we won't talk about them;-). Plus Carter, for all of his great qualities, was very much under the impression that he was an artiste. He had Important Things to say and he would inflict the purplest prose on you (usually via poor Gillian Anderson) to make sure that you got his point. I'm sure it all sounded better when he was writing it while he and Frank Spotnitz were high in hs van down by the river. It's okay, Chris, I forgive you. *gives noogie* /ETA
Finally we come back to Kripke and Supernatural. Right from the beginning he's been aware of fan support because of how tentative the show's renewal was after season one. I think he was also made more cognizant of fans because of all of the X-Files people he had with him at that time. I remember reading somewhere the Kim Manners told Jared and Jensen about fic and may have even given some of it to them, probably as a joke. All of them are certainly aware of us by now because after that first Chicago con Creation realized they could make a buttload of money off of us. But Kripke, instead of freaking out or deciding to hate us, has chosen rather to embrace us. And that's what last night was about. To put it in another way, and I can't remember where I saw it (
apocalypsos I think?), but last night was about Show writing RPF about the fans.I'm reminded of a remark Ian McKellan once made about LotR fans he'd met, that he'd been surprised to discover how smart so many of those fans were and that he really enjoyed some of the conversations he'd had with fans. That's what Eric is saying to us, he recognizes how smart we are and how we're always trying to both perfect our own craft while fangirling his product which is what he's trying to do as well.
That's why Kripke gets a pass on stuff like this because he's doing it with love. I think you're adorable too, Eric.
The internet has allowed fans and creators to interact in ways that they were never able to do before communication became so easy and instantaneous. Not all creators are able to handle that level of interaction but I think Kripke&Co are handling it just fine. They're willing to tell their story the way it needs to be told and they're letting us tell the stories that we need to tell. And if they sometimes poke fun at us, well, we give it right back in spades. We are them and they are us and it's really kind of awesome. After all, I've always said that Kripke is the biggest fangirl of them all.
In sum: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE LOVE BABEE
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-04-03 06:28 pm (UTC)The way the internet has changed I think is part of how we got to this point with SPN. That wouldn't explain why SPN is ahead of other current shows in its awareness of fans. The internet is more accessible and more fans are online and more creators are online than when Buffy got started.
Although TXF, which started even earlier, was very fan-attuned and a lot of people have credited the online fandom with getting the show renewed in the first place. So I don't know.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-06 09:37 pm (UTC)Greater internet accessibility certainly plays a large part in how the SPN fandom-creator relationship has evolved. After all, nothing beats the kind of instantaneous episode reaction that only the internet can provide.
I think one of the big things that has lead to the current relationship is the attitude that the showrunners have. They're willing to take honest critiques and admit when they've done things that didn't work out the way they wanted them to. They're willing to engage in that give-and-take with the fans and don't feel threatened by them.
Huh, the more I think I about it the more I think that Kripke, at the very least, is knowledgeable in the Was of Fandom. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if he spent a good deal of time poking around, as a fan, at ATXC back in the day. Which, if true, means he really is living the dream. The lucky bastard.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-03 10:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-04-06 09:23 pm (UTC)It's cause we're so awesome.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-07 04:43 pm (UTC)I have to say, reading your LJ is making me wish we hadn't given back your Supernatural Season 1 DVDs so I could make time to watch them all! I just didn't have time to properly start a new show before, but I feel left out, LOL!
no subject
Date: 2009-04-13 07:41 pm (UTC)And JMS asking not to see fanfic is actually something I highly approve of. I hate it when fans try to give showrunners and actors fic or other crazy fandom things. It's out here, they know it's out here and if they want to see it they can. But you only seem creepy and strange if you try to force it on them.
HEE! Yeah, my lj is kind of 'All Supernatural, All the Time.' Oh my OCD fannish brain, it can only ever focus on one shiny thing at a time. Though, *dons SPN crack dealer hat* I do think you'd enjoy my little show, especially once you hit the 4th season episodes. There's lots and lots of angels vs. demons and all of the fun stuff in between. You'd be surprised how tightly I kept my mouth shut when you showed me The Prophecy because the parallels were delicious.