(no subject)

[liptonrm_backup]

SPN 4x01


Okay, so, I'm not even sure where I want to begin. There are, like, a million things to talk about from that episode alone. There were WINCHESTERS and they were reunited and BOBBY and omg EYES BURNED OUT OF SOCKETS and KIM MANNERS IS LOVE and HOMG.

Now that I've had a night of sleep to decompress, I think I'll talk about the mythology. Not that I'm extremely versed in judeo-christian angel/demon lore, but, to finally participate in that SPN quoting meme, "I know a little about a lot of stuff, enough to make me dangerous."

It's funny cause when baylorsr were banging the Sister over the head with our Vast Knowledge last night I brought up four years of early-morning seminary as a reason for my own store of Vast Knowledge. Except, Mormons don't go in for the traditional judeo-christian mythology where angel lore is concerned. We have a vastly different conception of that part of the theological cosmos. That being said, I've done quite a bit of reading on my own and you can't travel in most fantasy circles without coming face to face with the traditional mythology. So I'm not exactly unacquainted with these things.

Just so you know. Don't you guys love how I have to disclaim everything? I'd blame law school but I think being a history major also had a lot to do with it. So I will forever after be all 'THESE ARE MY SOURSCES LET ME SHOW YOU THEM.' Or something.

Anyway. Show is definitely setting up an interesting dialectic between angels and demons. And may I just say how happy I am that they went there with the angels? Because I really am. I think that if you're going to use the mythology you have to use it in its entirety, you can't just show one side without showing its converse. Good for you show, thank you for not letting me down.

I'll save my Joss Whedon-related rant for another day. I'm sure you've all heard it before.

So we have Sam very obviously following Ruby's example/advice/mentorship and now we have an angel, Castiel, who says that he pulled Dean out of Hell because it was God's command. This can go a couple different ways, either it can be the obvious good vs. evil archetypical battle OR it can be more complex and emphasize the danger of extremism on both sides. While I was watching I had quite a few Dark is Rising flashbacks. The most important of those was that scene in The Grey King between Will and John Rowlands. It was a discussion about the Light vs. the Dark and, well, I'll let the book say it for me:

"But you misjudge us, because you are a man yourself. For us, there is only the destiny. Like a job to be done. We are simply here to save the world from the Dark. Make no mistake, John, the Dark is rising, and will take the world to itself very soon if nothing stands in its way. And if that should happen, then there would be no question ever, for anyone, either of warm charity or of cold absoloute good, because nothing would exist in the world or in the hearts of men except that bottomless black pit. The charity and the mercy and the humanitarianism are for you, they are the only things by which men are able to exist together in peace. But in this hard case that we the Light are in, confronting the Dark, we can make no use of them. We are fighting a war. We are fighting for life or death--not for our life, remember, we cannot die. For yours.... Sometimes, in this sort of a war, it is not possible to pause, to smooth the way for one human being, because even that one small thing could mean an end of the world for all the rest."

"It is a cold world you live in. I do not think so far ahead, myself. I would take the one human being over all the principle, all the time."

"Oh, so would I. So would I, if I could. It would feel a lot better inside me. But it wouldn't work."

So even if Show does go the full on 'good vs. evil' route it certainly won't be all warm and fuzzy. Heck, we saw that last night. Pamela wasn't evil but the angel still inadvertantly burned out her eyes. And who knows what's going to happen to that poor meatsuit that Castiel is wearing. Do you think he'll heal that man when he leaves the body? And, he's still possessing him, subsuming the body's rightful inhabitant with his personage.

BUT, and here's the big difference, that man chose to be a host and demons take without a care for what the host's choice would be. Angels are dangerous and scary, but there is that key difference.*

Another key difference between Ruby and Castiel is the way in which they're going about their missions. We still don't know what Ruby's ultimate goal is. I think everyone has theories but no one knows for sure. [Tangentially, I think that unawareness is really hurting the actresses who try to portray Ruby. I was distinctly not fond of Katie Cassidy as an actress but Genevieve Cortese, while perfectly fine during the motel room scene, obviously had no clue how to play her scenes as the demon. Which only tells me that if the writers know Ruby's motivation they're playing it extremely close to the chest. The bastards.] But we do know that Ruby's been all about subtlety, she's been playing Sam from the moment she appeared. Conversely, from what we've seen it appears that Castiel is going to be totally upfront about what he wants from Dean.

Does any of this even make any sense? I have all of these thoughts and they're all kind of spilling out willy-nilly. I love it when my shows do this to me, but I pity all of the good people who try to make heads or tails of my rambling.

In sum: I am absolutely fascinated to see where this is all going and how it's going to come out in the wash. Show isn't the subtlest, smartest, or most refined piece of television on the air but what it does well it does really freaking well. I can't wait to see where it's going from here.

*Another tangent: I'm sure a lot of you have noticed how worked up about choice I get. This may make more sense after I tell you that in Mormon cosmology choice is everything. EVERYTHING Lucifer became Satan because his idea was all about taking choice away. The key to our entire existence is having the opportunity to make decisions and choose what kind of people we want to be. Every choice has its consequences but the freedom to make the choice and accept what will come is all ours. And you can't make good choices without the necessary knowledge.

A present for you all: AC/DC - You Shook Me All Night Long

Comments

[auntiemeesh.livejournal.com]

Thank goodness there are people out there like you, who are better able than me to articulate the thinky thoughts. I've been having all sorts of angel/demon, good/evil thoughts in my head all day. I've got tons to say on the subject, what the show seems to be doing, etc, but I seem completely incapable of getting it out properly.

I'm eager to see what they end up doing with Castiel. I wholeheartedly like how they've set things up so far. Just because angels are Good, doesn't mean they're going to be sweet, kind, fuzzies. It wouldn't really work, if they were. So, yeah, I was very pleased with this expanded view of the mythology of the show. :)

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I got my thoughts out properly. It was more like word vomit via my fingers then anything else. ;-)

I'm also enjoying the heck out of the expanded mythology and all of the fun, fascinating new concepts Show has introduced. And if this week's episode is anything to to by then they're definitely going to play up the ruthlessness of good. It should be a fun ride.

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

Wheee! BRAIN TWINNING! I was fixing my breakfast just now and hadn't read your post yet even, pondering to myself whether I wanted to make a post about Susan Cooper and the ruthless nature of good and YOU ALREADY DID IT.

Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes. My meta is broken this year, so I'll just roll around happily in yours.

I've wondered about "the cold white flame at the center of the light" in relation to SPN for a few years now. \o/

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

SUSAN COOPER FTW!!! It makes me so happy when Show does smart things like introduce angels who aren't at all what mainstream viewers would expect. I can see them all cackling gleefully and saying, "Take that Touched By an Angel. We'll show you how it's really done.

This week I'm stuck on the parallels between Ruby and Castiel and how they're both attempting to lead their Winchester down the path of their choosing. mmmm tasty crunchy thoughts, no wonder zombies go straight for the brain.

[girl-wonder.livejournal.com]

Woot! I love your analysis, it's really hitting all the points I've been thinking about.

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

Thank you! It's been really fun in the past few weeks to see how Show is setting up their Good vs Evil battle. It's pretty amazing how a genre show on the CW has so much to say on pretty hefty issues.

[bonspiel.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the Dark is Rising series, but I think the point you make about choice and different priorities of angels/demons vs. human beings is a great one. I keep on thinking about In My Time of Dying where Dean learns from the Reaper that ghosts are driven mad by their inability to let go of their own mortal concerns. When is it best to hold on tightly to those things we care about (the lives of those we love) and when is it time to let go?

Anyway, hope you don't mind some random person commenting in your journal; I'm newly into SPN and reading a lot of new journals/links. Thanks for the music posting too.

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

I'd be so much cooler if I said this a week and a half ago when you first commented, but I totally don't mind random commenting. I kind of love it, in fact. It makes me feel all pseudo-BNFy. ;-)

BTW, Welcome to SPN fandom! It's certainly an ... interesting place.

I think that issues of choice and conflicting priorities is one of the things that Kripke&Co have handled extremely well. Those are subjects that could come across as heavy-handed or preach-y but they always manage to keep themselves grounded in the characters and reality (well, probably not reality reality, but definitely the reality they've created in the show).

The Winchesters are kind of the poster boys of how dangerous hanging on can be. But then, their emotional issues are one of the reasons I love them so very, very much.

You are most welcome re: the music. If I have it I do try to share. =D

[lembeau.livejournal.com]

Beautiful use of the DiR quote. This entire post is so awesome I have no more words.

OMG.

:OD

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

Oh, you know how it is, anytime I see a chance to quote/refer to/love all over DiR I have to take it. And it was wonderfully applicable under the circumstances.

I'm really excited to see where Show takes us this season. If it's anything like the first two episodes it should be an awesome ride.

[lita-of-jupiter.livejournal.com]

The only choice the dark gives is no choice at all.

I would love if they'd play that angle in show and especially if we see the consequence of the extremes, from both sides

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

The only choice the dark gives is no choice at all.

YesyesYES x infinity. That is the perfect encapsulation of all of my meanderings up above.

I've got my fingers crossed that Show will portray the consequences inherent to both sides. If they do it should make for some wickedly awesome television.

[lita-of-jupiter.livejournal.com]

I hope they will!!
from what we saw of Castiel I have a hope that they will

[patita-fea.livejournal.com]

Yes. This. Exactly this.

I've never read any Susan Cooper, but I think that quote illustrates very well the attitude we can expect from SPN angels.

Thanks for sharing the thinky!

[siriusslash.livejournal.com]

Wow this is an amazing body of thought. Not to mention that it makes so much obvious sense. We've been treated to what demons want and what they do to people for 3 seasons now and it would only make sense that it was now time for good to step in and enlist the help of the one person, although he's an atheist, who's been fighting the good fight for the better part of his life because he truly believes in good over evil. And even though at the moment Sam is using the power that was unwantingly given to him when he was 6mos. old he's now honing it and using it. Power like that usually will always corrupt people when they have some sort of vision of who gets to live and who gets to die. Sam is right now trying to extract the demon instead of killing the host at the same time as the demon. But for how long will he be satisfied with doing that. I mean take Eva and Jake for example. They started out fine enough but it's like Eva said in AHBL part1 the longer they were subjected to the YED demons coertion the easier it was to give in to the power. And before you know it they were killing because they wanted to be the ones to survive. HOWEVER none of those people had Dean as a brother/mentor. He's held his ground 100% on doing the right thing. And his ultimate goal is to be able to save Sam. So you're right this is all very interesting to see where they're going with this. Now for the bad part. I read an article that SPN is only slated to go for 5 seasons and if they are starting this season with the BIG WAR than that leaves me to believe that this season may be the begining of the end for the show. But I try not to think about that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts I really enjoyed reading this :D

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

One of the things I've always appreciated about Show is how there are always consequences to everything, especially to the choices characters make or have made for them. There's a great realism in the way that people, both Winchester and not, are affected by what happens. Of course, that very realism makes every death or corruption utterly tragic because we can see ourselves in these characters and empathize with the dangerous choices they've made.

Even actions made for what seem like the right reasons can have devastating consequences.

*sighs* I do so love it when my television makes me cry.

[paperspades.livejournal.com]

As much as I hate the idea of no Supernatural Thursdays, I'm kind of glad that they have an ending in sight. There's something to be said about a good story coming to it's natural close instead of being drawn out too long like Buffy, or cut too short like Harry Potter.

Gonna stop this here, though I've got more to say, I just don't wanna spoil it for anyone who missed last weeks episode and are as slow as I am at getting to read the metas.

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

OMG, I vehemently agree with you. Any of us who suffered through the indignities that were seasons 8&9 of the X-Files know what kind of horror a show that's run past its story can be.

I'll miss Show when it's gone, but there is a strong likelihood that it will go out on top, it story told, which is only ever a good thing.

[paperspades.livejournal.com]

I think I'm a bit young to have suffered through the x-files degeneration. By the time I figured out that my parents were being a bit overprotective as to what TV shows their daughter should watch, it was pretty much over and that is a lot of material to get through when it's all lumped together.

I got to admit though, I know of very few shows that don't push themselves too far...I really hope Supernatural doesn't do that. *prays to the tv gods* Please let the writers know about good pacing!

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

After 4x02 it's looking even more likely that things will play out the way the quote suggested. I've certainly got my fingers crossed that it will.

[roxygirl880829.livejournal.com]

Just stopping in because anteka linked this in her journal, and boy am I glad she did!!

I TOTALLY agree about the choice thing, and how that simple freedom divides good and evil so simply.

Also I commend you on being able to string you thoughts together in such a concise way. After the episode my brain was pure mush!!

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

[H]ow that simple freedom divides good and evil so simply.

If we don't have our choices we don't have anything at all. And it is such an simple difference but the consequences are pretty astounding. And how much do I love Show for recognizing that.

It's amazing the things that this "silly, little" genre show on the CW do to my brain. And pretty dang awesome. ;-)

[paperspades.livejournal.com]

First, I'm going to *insert random happy squee!* at the wonderful use of the Dark is Rising quote! It's amazing to me the sheer number of Supernatural fans who have at least read those books (I actually found you though an extremely winding search for Will Stanton's birth date). Especially since I can't find a single person IRL who read more than the first one.

Secondly, I think I'm about to make saving your Joss Whedon rant for another day, quite a bit harder. See, when looking at his work (and I mean everything from Buffy and Firefly to Dr. Horrible), it comes to my attention that they all share one very similar theme.
That life is not separated into good and evil, light and dark.
Yes, Buffy had demons but said 'demons' weren't the traditional demons of diametric mythology. They were 'monsters' and 'creatures' and beings who more often than not followed instincts that happen to not put humanity at the top of the food chain. I honestly can't even think of most of them as demons. They're just a different species of animal who happens to have a supernatural origin. I think angels, would have tipped the scale too much in favor of 'good'.

And thirdly, I will now go see if you have a rant up about 4x02 since I'd rather discuss Spn in it's most recent form so I don't accidentally spoil late-readers like me.

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

Hee! It is pretty nifty how many people in this little corner of fandom have read Dark is Rising. I'm not even sure how we all congregated together. I guess it was just kismet.

But, OMG, it's kind of awesome that you stumbled over this post looking for Will's birthdate. Sometimes surfing the internet really does reap some rewards. ;-)

Oh, Joss. I actually don't think there's space in a comment to fully go into my Whedon rant, nor is it really organized enough to see the light of fandom day. So you're saved that, at least. But, I will say, that it is true that many of the Buffyverse demons weren't "traditional" demons and so wouldn't follow the same sort of strictures that we see playing out in SPN. And that's fine. It was pretty obvious that the mythology part of the show wasn't what got Whedon's motor going and most of what he did came from him saying, 'OOOO, wouldn't it be cool if we did this?' and then doing it. That's cool, if he wants to put more tumors on the orc he can put more tumors on the orc. < /ridiculously esoteric Peter Jackson reference>

My real problem with Whedon comes with the differences in our world views, a difference I realized after watching Serenity. He sees the universe as a horrible place where evil is always just about to pull you under and drown you. There's no hope of anything better and and the best you can hope for it that you can find other people to weather the storm with you. My view of the world isn't quite so misanthropic. I do think there's hope, and not even related to some sort of supernatural force for good. I think that there's good in the people and the world all around us and that things aren't as bad as they may appear and that we can, all of us, overcome the pettiness in our natures, that that kind of self-improvement isn't limited to a select group of "champions" be they Scoobies or Angel Investigations or Browncoats.

And soon rainbows and unicorns will shoot out of my ass and we'll all clasp hands and sing, Im sure. ;-) And, yeah, my interpretation of Joss's message might be a little harsh and, in his defense, I'm sure some of my dissatisfaction stems from both my distaste for some of the things he says in interviews and the way some of his fans kiss the ground he walks on. I can be as petty as the rest of them, I know. *sighs*

OMG, I feel kind of bad that I didn't write anything up about 4x02! I was kinda busy, and then I was kinda ornery, as I'm sure you noticed. ;-) But, I'm sure I'll have something to say about 4x03 and if you do want to discuss 4x02 feel free to say something here. I'll go put a spoiler warning up in the body of the post if that happens.

Thanks for all of your excellent think-y thoughts!

[paperspades.livejournal.com]

*looks up ridiculously esoteric Peter Jackson reference and finds her internet skillz lacking*

I can't say as I've ever thought of the Jossverses in that way before but I can see your point. He does tend to create stories in which the world is unfairly harsh and it is left to the 'champions' to survive it and make things right enough that everything can keep going on as it has. I don't completely agree with this (I tend more towards the world and its people being self-serving without actual malice and helpful as long as it doesn't hurt their own interests (there are exceptions)), but I also think of hope as more a way to prevent a person from completely giving up as opposed to a valid future option.

But pushing personal views aside, I like that no hope/world and all its creations is out to get you view in my entertainment. Not all of it mind you, there is a place for the warm and fuzzy, but for the most part. I've never seen or read an interview with Whedon so I know nothing of his personal views or goals with his work and I don't know how that might affect how I watch his stuff I can't believe I couldn't find a better word than stuff. I need more sleep and to spend some good quality time with a thesaurus. And honestly I don't care much. It's the story that is important not the message being relayed by said story. Joss Whedon writes good stories with extremely character driven plots. Not only that but his characters are real and alive and there are more than just two who viewers actually care about.

And now that I reread this rant I believe that it might qualify me to be included in that 'fans of Whedon that kiss the ground he walks on' though there are things about his work that dissatisfy me and make me wonder what in all the hells was he thinking.

Everyone deserves to be petty once in a while as long as they don't abuse the privilege (btw I can't sppel privilege for my life even when it is written out already in front of me). And I totally vote for nursery rhymes if we must break out in song. They are creepy!

Hopefully these think-y thoughts are as excellent as the last or I might have to get some wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff involved.

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

Can I just say that I felt really kind of awful after I spewed all of my Whedon bitterness all over you? I'm really pretty sure that most of it has a whole lot more to do with me than him and I really kind of hate it when people spew all over things that other people really, truly love, especially when I'm the one doing the spewing.

I mean, the fact is, I wouldn't still have a BtVS icon if the man didn't tell stories that I enjoy. Just because I've let myself be turned into a bitter old fan doesn't mean that I'm *gasp* right about all of these things. Plus, it is true that tastes really do differ, and that's not a horrible, world-ending thing.

It's so refreshing to talk to someone in fandom who has a different point of view but is still willing to hold a calm, rational conversation. If only everyone online were so mature (myself included many days).

But, to now reveal how much of a LotR geek I've been in my day, let me explain the ridiculously esoteric Peter Jackson reference. If you recall, in Return of the King there was this Orc General that was leading the troops during the Siege of Minas Tirith. He was particularly gross and literally covered in bulbous tumors. During the special effects feature on the DVD the people over at WETA talked about how PJ came into the creature workshop and started throwing handfulls of latex foam stuff at the mock-up for that orc because it wasn't gross enough. They finally had to talk him down before the whole thing became one giant tumorous growth. It's kind of indicative of how OTT PJ could go and that he needed cooler heads (like Fran, Philippa, and Richard Taylor) to keep him from flying off the edge into insanity. Because it might be cool but sometimes the orc really doesn't need all of those tumors!

And there you go. Please forgive me for referencing personal injokes/metaphors that are amusing mostly to me. ;-)